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John Dickow: [00:00:00] hello and welcome back to another episode of your drone questions answered. I'm John Dicko with the drone launch Academy here to find the answer to your drone questions.

Today's question is when is BVLOS or beyond visual line of sight for drones going to be widely rolled out? Today I have with me Todd Graetz. He's a multi company regulatory drone pioneer. Todd, thanks for joining me today.

Todd Graetz: thanks for having me on.

John Dickow: Well, you're involved with a lot, so I'm going to sort of hand it over to you and let you first just sort of explain what you do, what you're involved in when it comes to drones.

Todd Graetz: So, I guess my main involvement in the industry of drones started in 2013 as co founder of BNSF Railways drone program, which, uh, for those that don't know, Not only is it one of the larger scaled BV loss drone operators in the United States and LOS or any kind of drone use in general, but it's a pioneer in the industry and has been partnered through a cooperative research agreement with the FAA since 2015.

So started in 13, but been really [00:01:00] scaling things up since 2015. And through that journey, which started many years ago now, you know, we've seen a wide range of technologies. We've seen a wide range of operating concepts. And we've, we've obviously, as I said, scaled it out significantly. So that's, that's my main involvement in the drone industry, but I'm also, um, active on the regulatory side.

I'm a founding member of the FAA's Drone Advisory Committee that started in 2016. That's now morphed into what's called the Advanced Aviation Advisory Committee. I'm still on that committee. and I am the, co chair of the Flight Rules Group for the FAA's Beyond Visual Line of Sight Advisory and Rulemaking Committee.

We're about to have another meeting this week as we sort out the low level flight route. consternation, which I'm sure we'll talk about, and I'm also a sitting, board member of the, AUVSI, which is, the preeminent, advocacy and, trade group for, all things uncrewed, so air, uh, ground and maritime automated systems too.

So I get to look at a lot of different drone type things as well. I guess lastly, I'm a very proud co founder of [00:02:00] Aerolane, which although it's not a drone company, it's heavily involved in building some radically efficient technologies for the transportation of cargo worldwide on aircraft large and small.

So very involved in the industry. But I have a big time soft spot in my heart for BV law since essentially that was my original mandate from the FAA was to help them research how to do this in scale.

John Dickow: That's fantastic. And I have somebody with your experience answer this question. You're the right guy for the job here.

So let's get into it before we kind of get into when this is going to be widely rolled out. Do you mind just explaining to our audience, you know, what is beyond visual line of sight when it comes to a drone? How is it applied? What is it used

Todd Graetz: for? Yeah, it's the purest expression of scaled operations and, other than very simple operations that it can occur with a pilot and an aircraft one to one, BV loss to me is, is how the, the drone industry in the United States will thrive and scale and, have a material and beneficial impact on society.

And whether that's [00:03:00] the Amazon. package delivery concept, which, you know, co founder of Aerolane, along with me, Gert Kim, she founded, uh, Amazon, uh, Primaire, right? That's, that's scaled BV loss. That's many, many aircraft bringing things to your door, or whether that is longer range agriculture, uh, firefighting, right?

Or in the case of BNSF Railway, long range, infrastructure inspection, drones have to be able to fly. Beyond the line of sight of that operator. And in many cases it has to be multiple drones, many, many drones being controlled by automated systems with, one or few, very few humans, operating things in the loop.

So BV loss to me is, it's the purest expression of the promise of drone technology, in the United States and, and worldwide.

John Dickow: Well that makes sense. And, and honestly, I've been hearing about this for the last 10 years and beyond is, is when is Amazon going to start delivering packages to your front doorstep with a drone?

so that's just a great segue into the, kind of the meat of the question is where are we at with, Beyond Visual [00:04:00] Line of Sight currently?

Todd Graetz: Well, there's a great many companies, right? So it's not just our friends at Amazon Prime Air, or, the great folks at Wing, right? The, uh, the Google spin out Wing, uh, Zipline, right?

DroneUp, what have you. Everyone has been and is trying and has put enormous sums of, of people and money to work on the problem. And the limiting factor right now, I mean, I could, I can go into a lot of things and maybe I'll, I'll touch on the bigger picture, but let me just get to the meat of the problem right now, So we spent almost a year, a little over a year. This is many iterations of advisory and rulemaking committee to give you some history drones kind of got started at the FAA in the, mid two thousands, but it got real momentum, you know, 13, 14, and 15 going into 2015. And what happened in 2015, and this was under the leadership of Jim Williams, who at the time was running what was called the Unmanned Integration Office, which, again, I could tell you a story how industry had to get that going for the FAA, but the [00:05:00] FAA essentially recognized that there's, there's a huge opportunity to bring this, technology into use.

And at that time there was a wide range of concerns. But the first thing is there was no real understanding of how to operate them. And there was no real understanding how to integrate them. That's why they created the, unmanned integration office, a U S now. and there was also an understanding that even if you could figure out those things, it wasn't just rules, it was technology, it was safety and everything.

So even though the industry started in An area where although we could borrow things from what the Department of Defense and various users, uh, use drones for, we, we couldn't necessarily adopt that exactly to the, you know, to the national airspace system, which under the governance of the FAA is the safest piece of air.

and one of the safest ways to travel ever known to our species, right? Because of, of the way the FAA operates. the hurdles today, after getting in that Little history lesson. There aren't so much that there isn't a business case aren't so much what it comes down to is most of the drone operations that are being perceived [00:06:00] Happen in the lower altitudes, right?

If all the drone operations that were envisioned by everybody were above 18, 000 feet this would be a lot easier because What happens in the lower altitudes, whether it's the taking off from the airport or it's all the things that happen lower altitudes, is of course, there's a concern that drones cannot see the, uh, the other aircraft and specifically the incumbent aircraft.

This is the general aviation aircraft, or these are the, the small and large aircraft taking off from airports, whether they're listed or otherwise. So the crux of the matter is today. There is still not universal agreement in the industry from both incumbent operators and the new entrants, the companies that you and I both mentioned, on how to handle low level operations.

So the problem is, if I'm going to have one or more aircraft operating away from the line of sight of the operator, then the FAA wants to be sure that those aircraft do not harm the current [00:07:00] operators of the National Airspace System. And there's two camps in that incumbent existing user camp. There's the camp that wants to equip and wants to make all aircraft electronically visible.

And there's another camp that says, you know what? We're the incumbent operators. Everything's working just fine. We don't need to make any changes to our operating practices. And we certainly don't need to equip because. For these aircraft, we have no interest in operating them in congested airspace, so we don't want to equip them.

there's a whole other ADS B, Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast technology we can talk about, but that is the crux of the matter, is that most of the operations, package delivery and what have you, need to happen at lower altitudes. And in the lower altitudes is where the big concern and the big debate is at, which is DC tomorrow evening.

For, Wednesday discussions with, numerous FAA leaders and many in the industry, including the new entrants and the incumbents to work this through, because that is the challenge right now, how to safely integrate.

John Dickow: Okay. Well, and [00:08:00] that really kind of answers the meat of the question here is that it hasn't been agreed upon and more has to happen there.

just somebody with your kind of experience that if you were to look maybe another 10 years ahead here. Where do you see us?

Todd Graetz: Well, we certainly can't wait 10 years. So the first thing, if we don't have this solved as an industry by the end of this year, if we don't have some level of agreement, and if we're not at a notice for proposed rulemaking for what might be referred to as part 108, right, there's part 107, that's primarily LOS, but line of sight, you can get waivers and you can do things under part 107.

And there's many other. FAA programs that have been invented to allow BV loss. I mean, again, you know, BNSF railway is one of the largest BV loss operators in the United States, has been since 2016. Very few people know about it, but we're operating under a wide range of exemptions and waivers. so the long and short of it is we don't have 10 years, we gotta, we gotta have this handled.

We were supposed to have a notice for rules this year, but again, for a wide range of other reasons, in many cases outside of the direct FAA control, we don't have the rules. So what we need [00:09:00] immediately is we need, an agreement from, both the new entrants and the incumbents on how to operate under 500 feet.

And we believe that we're coming closer to some level of agreement. of equipage and operating principles away from airports in rural areas under 500 feet and, and not just there, but also under 500 feet in congested areas. If we get that and those rules are out for, public comment and in the rulemaking process by early next year, and if the FAA is allowed to begin to permit operations, like they have been, but even larger scale, assuming these new rules are coming, then where we're at in 10 years is we have a thriving automated aircraft industry in the United States doing far more than the simple cases of package delivery and other things, but a wide range of things that are beneficial for society.

If we don't act quickly, there is no reason to talk about 10 years, because not only will we not be in [00:10:00] control of this. technology in this industry, but the capabilities that that are are a promise of this technology, they'll be in the hands of other countries and will be continually playing catch up.

And there's another problem with this. we're trying to build a domestic drone industry. We're trying to make jobs right for, for people that are getting their education today. And it will be very difficult for this country to create those jobs if we are not in a leadership position from both a regulatory standpoint, an operating standpoint, and a manufacturing standpoint.

And it's just not the drones. It's all the other things that come with the drones. But if we don't take advantage of this leadership opportunity and get these rules out, we're not even talking about 10 years. Not even worth talking about.

John Dickow: I've never looked at it that way, that there could be those kind of consequences and that's the negative, but on the positive, it feels like we're on the cusp of like a renaissance here when it comes to using drones.

I

Todd Graetz: think we are. I mean, it always, look, if you would have told me in 2015 that in 2023, there would only be a handful of [00:11:00] companies operating at the scale of like A B N, SS F or others like them. I wouldn't have believed you, I would've thought maybe on the outside 20 19, 20 20, never would've thought we'd be this far down the road.

it always takes a little bit longer. And again, I have to give the fa credit. They recognize their number one job is to do no harm to the current system they built, which is incredibly safe and there is no amount of. market potential or cool technology that's going to make them waver from that.

some even people say they're conservative to a fault. I disagree, by the way, I spend more time flying actual aircraft than I do even touching or being remotely attached to drones. I spend more time actually in the national airspace and I am. regularly reminded of why I am safe in the air.

I'm a heck of a lot safer up there than I am on the ground, and it's because of the F. A. And these rules. But at the same time, because there is not only hesitancy for change, but also they have to listen to a wide range of constituents. Some of the [00:12:00] constituents in the national airspace today to As I said earlier, do not want this to change.

they want all of the onus of operating technology and investments and practices to happen for the new entrance. And I see their point on it because again, I'm a member of two of those organizations, but at the same time, I also know what this new technology can represent.

Okay. Where am I going with this? The other risk that we, that we need to acknowledge here isn't just the domestic risk. But again, we have a lot of attention paid in this country on the source of where the drones come from, who makes them, you know, what are those drones know about us? What are they doing?

How do we control safety? And the fact of the matter is one of the best technologies out there by far, still to this day, it pains me to say. The best drone technology is still made in China. And even though we have wonderful domestic operators like Skydio, which is one that comes to mind, cause I've done a lot of work with them who make phenomenally good technology.

They still can't compete with China for two reasons. One. [00:13:00] No one cannot manufacture China, and number two, it's very hard to compete with the Chinese government. Impossible, almost. Right? Ask 3D Robotics, ask so many other people that have gone after them. So it's important as a, as a country that we decide to adopt BV Loss quickly and take the promise of that technology into operation, because it's also going to further so many other economic and homeland security goals.

Companies like Skydio need a market domestically, not just around the world, they need a market domestically to compete and it's going to be very difficult for them to bring that technology to promise without these rules. So long answer, but hopefully that gave you some more

John Dickow: information.

you are full of knowledge on this and we don't nearly have enough time I feel like to really get into, you know, the intricacies of this, but I do want to go back, to kind of what you were saying before about, you know, how quickly. we could have a breakthrough here soon, and leadership, all the necessary entities come to a, an agreement, moving forward, how long between then and to start seeing, you know, industries, commercial industries leveraging, this new beyond visual light of [00:14:00] sight, if somebody wants to know, when can I get a package delivered to my front door, uh, with the drone, how soon would that

Todd Graetz: happen?

Well, if all things happen and if we can get some level of agreement of what happens several miles from an airport, below 400 feet, even if we can get the industry, the incumbent operators and the new entrance to agree on a pathway forward, which I will tell you is a. Excellent pathway, not just because I was one of the authors of that pathway, but again, I wear multiple hats.

I can, I can think like GA, I can think like helicopters, but I can also think like drones. We're very close. If calm heads prevail and if the future is allowed, then, you could see some of these business cases coming into use, by middle to late of next year, earlier, probably due to waivers and exemptions, but late next year, early the following because of rules. Now, that's a very aggressive time frame, but that's me. That's what I think. And that's when you start seeing some of these these early wins happen right of the package deliveries and medical [00:15:00] resupply and testing samples and some of this stuff that's important to people, you'll start seeing that and then you'll see the follow on benefits, right?

Which which again will be less congestion on the roads because it'd be less things driving and You know, you'll have wider accessibility to things. And so I think you, you know, you'll start seeing those follow ons pretty quickly because there's a lot of companies, a lot of resources just poised to flip the switch when they see regulatory certainty.

John Dickow: Wow. And now, I mean, just after listening to you, it just sounds like this is something that me and our audience is probably going to be following pretty closely because it's pretty exciting. But also, this is something that can impact our economy, can impact the entire job market, uh, beyond just us drone enthusiasts.

so thank you for that, we're very lucky to have you on this podcast. we have a lot of, students, drone novelists, that are part of our audience, looking to either use a drone in their current industry or blaze a new career path with the drone.

What advice do you have for them as somebody who, has a pretty good. idea of the direction that drones are [00:16:00] moving, from a commercial standpoint. What advice do you have for, our students who, really want to make a career out of drones?

Todd Graetz: Yeah, I think the best advice I can give you, um, is to pick what side of the fence you'll be on.

So what I mean by that is, Are you going to educate yourself and become an expert on the flying object and everything related to it? Or are you going to become an expert, and a master of the craft of understanding what those drones are actually doing? So, let's set aside the package delivery side, even though there's a lot of nuance there.

When you, when you look at drones, many other cases, it's all about collecting data, right? So decide, are you going to understand the air side? And if you're going to understand the air side, the flying object, then actually the fundamentals of the flying object are one thing. You should understand the systems that make that object fly.

But if you really want a leading edge and if you can afford it, get yourself a private pilot license. get a private pilot license, you know, be able to fly under the various rules, even just get basic [00:17:00] hours that will give you a true understanding of all of the arguments and all the technology and all the systems that go into making the airspace safe and how that flying object occupies itself and then learn everything about the Olson systems in the control systems, right?

That's an important side, but you've got to really know your stuff because frankly, the, flying of the drone thing is becoming a commoditized skill. So you've got to be better than just a drone pilot. And the only advice I could say is, is understand how to fly the drone, but also understand all the other aircraft and the airspace, right?

All the operating rules and principles and so on and so forth. That'll give you the edge. Now, if you decide you don't want to do the flying object. Then, specialize in analytics, data acquisition, data analytics, data transmission, understand the payload, understand the sensors, how that information is being collected, and this is the most important part, how it's analyzed and disseminated to the end users.

If you look at what the rail excelled at, [00:18:00] it wasn't just the long, you know, multi hundred mile flying and all the communication systems and the air traffic integration, everything you had to do. It was also that we could collect data. We could make sense of that data and we collect mammoth amounts of data.

But it's also how we can disseminate that to the user. So you really have to specialize in this industry, the flying object and everything related to it, or the data and the dissemination. And that's the best advice I could give anyone looking at getting into this industry today.

John Dickow: That is excellent advice.

And coming from you, that's, that's pretty meaningful to our audience. So really, I really appreciate you coming on here. Would really like to have you back to keep talking about issues like this, because, You don't get this opportunity to talk about somebody who's so involved in, this kind of transformation of the industry and, and the regulation behind it.

So, thank you, Todd. And, and to our audience, you can submit your own drone questions and we will find the answer to it. You can submit your questions at YDQA. io or if you're part of the drone launch private community, go ahead, type your [00:19:00] questions in there. We'll see it and we'll find somebody who can answer it in the meantime, we'll see you in the sky.